A conversation with Jareth Nebula

Esther: Hello and welcome. What’s your name? 

Jareth: Hi, my name is Jareth Nebula. 

Esther: Hi Jareth. And how do you identify? 

Jareth: I have a couple of labels that I like to use and they’re, some of them are similar, but they all kind of stand alone. Or have like a standalone definition, I guess I am transgender agenderflux, demiboy, and alien.

Esther: I love it. And I would love to ask you about all those and what they mean to you. Where would you like to start? 

Jareth: Well, I guess with the agenderflux, because it’s kind of a newer terminology. 

Esther: That’s the first time I’ve come across it actually. So yeah. What does it mean. 

Jareth: So agenderflux is kind of, it means that the person identifies with no particular gender, but fluctuates with having a base gender. So like an agenderflux person could be like partially one gender or no gender, but they have like, Okay. So it starts with zero and then it ends up with like a hundred, essentially. So like mine, which is demiboy, which means that I am mostly agender because of the agenderflux. But because of the demiboy, I am a base boy and I’m boy part of the time. If that makes sense. It’s a little bit much to explain, like all of it, because it does have different definitions depending on where you read about it. But for me, that’s what that’s kind of the definition. 

Esther: Okay. And are these terms that you have adopted quite recently? I mean, how has that journey been for you to get to these, you know, not the destination as such, because obviously it varies, but, and things developed don’t they, but how have you ended up with. agenderflux and demiboy right now? 

Jareth: I have recently adopted the agenderflux because I just discovered it, the demiboy identity or part of my identity. I have had that one for a while. I feel like that one has always been kind of accurate just because I’m not a boy, but I am part of the time. And.

Helps to have that as a marker for my identity and the agenderflux is more recent because I do identify as a gender most of the time. So that kind of ties in with the alien gender as well. And the alien gender I’ve identified as alien for many, many, many years. Even before. Coming out as transgender, I would call myself an alien.

So it’s just kind of always been there. It’s even before I knew that that was like a way that you could identify as a gender. It was there. 

Esther: Hmm. Yeah. I’d love to know more about that actually. So what made you, you know, what makes you resonate with that term? 

Jareth: The alien part? Yeah. Yeah. Well, my whole life I’ve felt like an outsider.

I have always been the weird kid. I’ve always been the outcast. Like every part of my life when I was growing up, I didn’t have any friends. I didn’t have we, my family moved to this small town and there were. Like we were the only people that weren’t related to anyone. And there was only like 22 people in my grade.

And the, like, it was very small. So, you know, I was an outsider. We were all like, my whole family was like outsiders. And then we moved to. Another small town. And I went to high school there and I was always the weird kid. I wore rabbit ears to high school. I was very weird. And

you know, I’ve always, I’ve always resonated with that with just being. An alien, because I feel like I’ve always felt like an outsider as well as people treating me like an outsider. So even in the alternative communities and the goth scenes and like most subcultures that I’ve participated in, I’ve been the weirdo.

Like, I doesn’t matter what group I’m in. I’m always. The one that’s like, I don’t want to be like everybody else. I guess it also kind of ties into that. So I embrace the alien part of me and more than anything else. 

Esther: Yeah. I love that really. Cause I can, I can relate to the outside a bit. I’ve kind of always felt like an outsider myself.

But I’d never really thought to identify as an alien though. I wonder if I’d had that opportunity years ago, if I’d have, you know, adopted that term. I don’t know. We guess we’ll never know, but there you go. Yeah. How did, I mean, how was that growing up? Was it obviously being an outsider, it’s kind of like, I feel it’s, it can have its challenges obviously with, you know, making friends and obviously not being accepted and stuff, but it sounds like you’re also happy in that identity. And like you say, you don’t want to be like anyone else. 

Jareth: Yeah. I embraced being the weirdo. It helped me a lot, I think, because when you deal with being on the spectrum or having autism of any kind, like you already think and process differently, so you kind of are just. You know, out there anyway, and it helps to have something that you can embrace to be like, not necessarily a label, but just have something that you can like call your own and, you know, share it with the world, I guess.

Esther: Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like you’ve found your people now? Or do you have like friends and people that. I don’t know that you feel get you. 

Jareth: Yeah. And yes, for, yes. The easy answer is yes. I, I have to say that when it comes to the alien part of my identity, I have actually found people from multiple different communities actually, because the alien part of my identity is not just my gender. It is like everything and it encompasses a lot more than just my gender, my disabilities make me feel like I am an alien as well, because. I don’t have a body that works properly like a normal “human” body does. I mean, yes, I understand I’m in a human body, but the things that my body does, doesn’t really like line up.

So when I reached out to the Ehlers-Danlos EDS, Community. That’s the main disability that I have is Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. When I became a part of that community and then my video came out, a lot of people in the EDS community actually identify as alien as well. Yes. Yeah. A lot of them do, and it is very common in communities where people have autism spectrum as well. So it there’s a lot of tie-ins for like different communities in, and the alien gender. And I have found that I relate more to people in the alien part of the communities that I belong to more than anything else. 

Esther: Hmm. Wow. That’s fascinating. Yeah.

Jareth: And I also like have quite a bit of friends that are on the spectrum as well now. Yeah. 

Esther: I had a conversation recently with someone, they said that being on the autistic spectrum is more common with gender nonconforming people, as well as the other way, round something along those lines. Yeah.

Jareth: There’s a lot of connection for sure. I wouldn’t say that one causes the other or anything like that, but there is definitely some crossover. And I find that those, that the people that have both of those labels are I relate to them a lot more. 

Esther: Yeah. That makes sense. So how have you you mentioned, obviously I’m not just asking this out of the blue, because that might be a bit rude, but you mentioned about being heavily body modified and I would love to sort of hear more about, you know, the changes you’ve made to your body.

Jareth: Yeah. So I have a lot of tattoos. I have scarrifications. I have piercings and I have also had a top surgery. So I have had a double mastectomy and had both my nipples removed. My scars are a little bit different than everybody else’s they’re not the under the, the under bust area. It is actually like a line that’s diagonal across my chest. So the the scars look different as well. 

Esther: Is that something that is, was intentional. Is that something you requested perhaps? Yeah.

Jareth: Yeah. I actually had to beg them to do it. There was a lot of issues. I mean, well, they basically warned me that if I did it that way, that the healing would be different and they were correct. I’m not, I don’t regret it or anything, but I definitely would have probably done a little bit more research if I had the time, but I did it very quickly, 

Esther: Right. Yeah. That’s an interesting one. So what made you want to remove your nipples? 

Jareth: I have always had a disconnect with my chest and the nipples were like a huge part of it.

Having them removed, having my breasts removed and having my nipples removed was actually the best thing I’ve ever done for my dysphoria. Yeah, it helped more than anything. I, it was a huge point of discomfort for me and having my nipples removed made me feel more doll-like as well. So that helped cause that I, I do have doll joint tattoos and I have always kind of like related to the.

The label of doll. I like being called a doll. That’s like the only feminine term that I really like. 

Esther: Oh, wow. Yeah. So that comes into your art as well. Doesn’t it? 

Jareth: Yes. Most definitely. 

Esther: Yeah. How did you get into that? That’s a bit more about your art anyway, like the art you make and the you know, even the tattoos you have, like the doll joints, you know, what made you do that?

Jareth: I have been into dolls my entire life. I have been into art my entire life. Both of my parents are artists. They owned a ceramic business. They owned jewelry business. They’ve done pretty much. My parents do everything that you can think of as far as art goes, but they all obviously have their specialties and things, but I was born an artist, essentially. There was no other, I didn’t have a choice. I started drawing and painting as soon as I could pick up a pencil and paintbrush and using my fingers and, you know, I started sculpting and using different mediums and everything. When I was a kid, you know, they had ceramics my whole life.

So, you know, I painted ceramics and all that, but as far as tying in my art to my body modifications, I wanted to turn myself into a walking piece of art. And I know that a lot of people do that with their tattoos. But mine are a cohesive story well at least to me anyway I turned myself into a doll because I have my doll joints are on all of my joints. I have 72 stars all over my body and I have different. I have like a silver, the element of silver from the periodic table on my right arm. I’m very into chemistry. I think it’s very fascinating. And also alchemy. I, I love alchemy, so silver is a huge component in alchemy. So anyway, I’m going on a tangent here.

Esther: Do you think that you will have more tattoos, more modifications? How do you see that developing or you do feel like you’re kind of happy where things are at the moment? 

Jareth: Oh, I’m absolutely getting more body modifications. I am going to get up to 333 stars on my body. So I’m going to have like a whole… I’m working on designing and planning out a whole chest and throat piece to cover up my scars and chest so that I can feel more comfortable with showing it off. I really want to get my ears pointed, but I don’t know if that is in my budget at any point in my life because it’s expensive. And there’s like quite a few other things that I’ve, you know, tossed around in my head about. Different plastic surgeries that I want, and I want to get surgery to make my face more masculine.

I have like quite a few other tattoos that I want to get, but they’re all kind of in the working stages. Cause I don’t want the story of my tattoos to fade. I don’t want to have like a (nice pun there). I don’t want to have anything random. I want it all to be part of the whole message so that I have more magic in what I’m creating as like who is Jareth aesthetically.

Esther: Yeah. I love that. Wow. So tell me about your art as your, you know, what you, what you’re working on at the moment you make things like collars, like spiked collars and things. How did you get into that? 

Jareth: I make a lot of different things. I am, I’m a Jack of all trades. I love crafting and I love art and I dabble in pretty much everything you can think of. I customized dolls. I paint them. I make everything you can think of for them. I make doll jewelry. I even make spiked collars and spiked bracelets for adults. So they’re like these little tiny things. I make… Well, I just started doing digital art as well, but I, I started making collars specifically because I have a huge collection of them.

And I wanted to add to that. I wanted to have more of them without having to pay over a hundred dollars each time. And also, I just love the aesthetic of spiked collars. Everything about it makes me happy. So having it everywhere in my life is pretty fantastic. 

Esther: Yeah. I saw some of the pictures, actually. I love the really that the bright is it sort of the glow in the dark ones with the sparkly bits in it? Oh my God, they’re so amazing!

Jareth: Thank you. I, I like to have my spikes unique because there’s a lot of collar artists coming out there, there’s more and more of us appearing. And so I want to stand out. And one of the things that makes my art stand out is using glow in the dark pigments. I use… It’s glow in the dark and UV obviously. Cause they, you know, they go together and it makes me really happy because then I can also create rave accessories. Cause like I’m a huge raver, so that even though raves aren’t happening right now, it’s still nice to create little accessories that people can wear to their little in-home raves that they make, you know?

Esther: Right. Yeah. raving on zoom. 

Jareth: Yeah, exactly. raving on zoom. 

Esther: Not quite the same, but still you can dress up, then. Could definitely dress up. Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned your parents and moving around a bit and stuff. How have your parents been with your, your gender journey? 

Jareth: That’s a very complex question and my parents are kind of distant in my life and they don’t really understand a lot of the like sub identities. They understand transgender as much as they can because they’re old. But the, they just kind of let me do whatever makes me happy, but they’re not really in my life anyways. So like, I, I don’t talk to my dad very often. Like we get, we text each other very infrequently and I talked to my mom once a week and I text her.

You know, it’s like they have a lot to, to deal with right now. My little sister lives with them with a four or five-year-old. So they pretty much have their hands full and I don’t want to intrude, so I just kind of stay in the distance. And they, you know, they, they use, I use he, him pronouns. I do because of the fact that I am a demiboy, I do let my family just kind of see me as a boy. And it’s very, it’s much easier that way to kind of let society just see me as a boy and to kind of have that part of my identity, be what people see the most like for when I’m working. For example, when I work, I just tell people that I’m a guy and it works because I don’t want people to

you know, cause transgender is my, you know, that I am trans, so I’m, I don’t like it when people obviously use female or she her pronouns or any other like femme pronouns? I’m becoming okay with they them, but I prefer he him it’s, they, them is something that’s starting to grow on me even though in the past I’ve told people not to use it because he him is more accurate. But I don’t know. In the recent weeks I’ve been exploring the idea of being able to take both. 

Esther: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So how do you feel for yourself about the term nonbinary or the label nonbinary? 

Jareth: If you get down to the brass tacks of like, what I identify as most of them are in the non-binary umbrella bracket.

So it, you know, I don’t call myself non-binary, but I definitely understand that every label that I use kind of falls into that as non-binary, because I’m not binary. Only part of, only part of it is, and, you know, cause agenderflux is a non-binary identity and so is demiboy. So and so, and so is alien.

So it’s kind of like, they’re all, they’re all non binary labels, but I don’t use the term non-binary. 

Esther: Because the ones, the terms you have, I guess are more specific. So they would feel more aligned. 

Jareth: Yes, exactly. I prefer that’s why I have multiple labels is because it’s more specific. And so people kind of understand a little bit more of the dynamic. That is my gender, because my gender is very complex. It is not simple. It is not just a one to one. Or, you know, I jumped from being girl to boy. Like it’s not like that. It’s very complex. And, you know, having multiple labels helps a lot for me and my brain and for other people to kind of understand where I stand in my gender.

Esther: Yeah. Yeah. Can you say a bit more about the complexity of your gender? Is there anything you haven’t said yet that you’d like to add about that? 

Jareth: Oh, yes, absolutely. One thing that I like to tell people, or that I’d like to share is that gender is not the same for everybody at every given moment. So like, for example, because I’m flux like agenderflux, like my gender is not the same every given moment.

So sometimes I’m more boy than I am agender and sometimes I’m more agender or alien than I am boy or demiboy. So it’s, you know, all over the place. And I definitely don’t think that gender is the same. Like it’s not constant. It is all over the place for everyone. I think that gender is fluctuating and it doesn’t. Gender is all different. Like, for example, I’m totally not having an easy time talking about this. So for example, someone would, could be a different gender at 15 than they would be at 18 or 25 or 30, you know, so of gender, gender doesn’t stay the same for somebody throughout their entire life. It could change it’s fluctuating like it.

And that happens to everybody, not even just transgender people. I’ve met people that are cis that go from being cis to non-binary, to trans and then back to cis because they explored that part of them and then realized that that was just a, a part of their life, that they were only trans part of their life.

They aren’t trans their entire lives. And I feel like a lot of the time people forget that that happens, like, and people are like, oh, that’s trans trending or whatever, faking it. And it’s like, well, no, actually people are not one, like, it’s not, you know, some people are like, some people are the same gender when they’re three, as when they’re like 50, that does happen.

But you know, gender isn’t going to stay constant like that. I feel like for the most part it’s fluctuating, especially for trans people. I don’t know. Maybe that’s just my experience and what I’ve seen with people. I know. 

Esther: That’s fair. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it kind of, it makes sense to me in a way that I feel like I’ve changed as a person, a lot, you know, over, over the years. Although I would say I’m, cis-gender the way I see gender has changed. So it I’m not, I don’t question my gender as such, but I do question gender as a construct and as a subject, you know, it’s, it’s like the more you look into it, the more mysterious it becomes, like the more questions you have, that’s what I’ve been finding.

So yeah, and I think it’s, it’s also about like what it represents and how it affects your place in society and all sorts of things. It’s, it’s a real, to be honest, it’s a real minefield to be fair, perhaps. 

Jareth: That’s exactly what I mean. Everything that you just said goes along with how I feel gender is because like that, that makes total sense.

Having gender be changing, depending on how you see it, how society views it, how they treat it, you know, and a person’s gender could change based on like what, you know, cause like if a person doesn’t understand transgenderism and then they, at some point end up learning about it and then realizing that that is who they are, you know, that changes the person.

So, you know, sometimes understanding a gender makes. Like you, it makes it clicks in your brain and you’re like, oh shoot, that’s me. You know, that, that kind of realization also helps, you know? Yeah. It goes along with what I was saying. 

Esther: That’s cool. Yeah. 

Jareth: That makes sense. Yeah, totally. 

Esther: Yeah. Yeah. And so how does your agenderflux, for example, how does it affect all your labels to be fair? How does it affect how you express your gender and your identity? 

Jareth: I view gender identity separate than gender expression. I think that the people kind of squish all of the alternatives. Like for example, people squish, gender and sexuality together.

They think it’s the same thing or gender expression and gender identity, like all three of those things are separate. And for example, for me specifically, I, my expression, my gender expression is just all over the place. I wear a lot of color and that is not really a typical masculine thing. And I do wear a lot of goth clothes too. And when I do, it’s more on the femme leaning side. So I I guess the best way to describe how I dress and my expression is a androgynous, but I also tie in very heavily masculine and feminine. Aesthetics, like, for example, I’ll fill in my mustache and use masculine contouring when I do my makeup, so that I look more masculine when I’m wearing makeup.

And I will also, you know, I wear pants mostly. Not that that’s like a masculine thing, but I, you know, yeah. Right, exactly. But, you know, it’s just, I try to use a little bit of both elements as far as masculine and feminine goes because it, I wear whatever I want to wear, I guess, is the easiest way to describe it.

I wear whatever I’m feeling that day and just. I wear comfortable, more comfortable clothes now than I ever have. I guess when you’re almost 35, it’s probably time to start wearing comfortable pants and comfortable shirts instead of wearing raver and J-fashion things where you have 15 billion things on your head, it’s a lot more comfortable to just be casual, I guess.

And I understand that now, but I still wear weird stuff. You know, like Lisa Frank leggings and underneath my bright blue Dickies. And it’s like, 

Esther: Yeah. I’m all about the comfortable clothes to be fair, but it’s nice to. You know, do something different, I guess sometimes for sure. 

Jareth: Yeah. I dress up for photo shoots and for taking selfies and around the house, but you know, with what’s going on with the world right now, it’s difficult to, we don’t have anywhere to dress up and go to, so we just have to dress up at home.

And when I’m at work, I’m just want to be as comfortable as possible. So I just wear comfortable crap. 

Esther: Yeah, I know what you mean. Like I work from home and basically I just have a PJ’s all day, every day. Yup. Pretty much.

Jareth: Yes! I love PJs.

Esther: PJ’s are the best. Ah, yeah. So do you you mentioned photos, I’ve seen some of your photos.

They’re amazing. So you are a model as well? 

Jareth: Yes, that is a, oh man. So I have been modeling most of my life. I’ve been well at this point, I’ve been modeling since I was 16, so 19 years. I was professional. I did runway. I got paid. I was with agencies when I was younger as a teenager, so 16 to like 19 or something like that.

I was with like some agencies in Portland and I did runway cause I’m tall. And I have actually, I continued doing modeling after I came out as transgender. So I was a model pre-transition. So as presenting as female, I was a model and got printed in a couple of magazines and I’m on the cover of a book because of stock photos and all this other stuff.

And, you know, it’s a huge part of my life. It was actually what people would consider a career choice. However, when you choose a career that you don’t get paid for and you spend almost 20 years of your life dedicated to it, it becomes very difficult when that entire industry doesn’t pay you for your time.

But Hey, at least I’m printed in magazines. And recently I just got on the back cover of another magazine. I’ve been on the cover of a magazine before, but this time it was on the back cover, but it was still awesome. Cause it’s a cover who cares if it’s on the back or not, people look at both sides. So, you know, I’m, you know, I modeling is something I don’t think I could ever stop doing because it’s such a huge part of my identity.

It makes me happy. It’s one of the only things in my life that make me truly happy. And I love doing it, even though it takes, you know, it costs money to do it at this point. Cause you have to be, you know, you have to have the right outfits. You have to, you know, you have to pay for all that stuff. And then you sometimes have to pay for studios.

And you know, at this point, I just do shoots for publication. Like, I work with local photographers, and we submit our shoots and sets to magazines. 

Esther: Hm. Okay. Yeah. So how would you say your modeling has evolved as your gender journey has evolved? 

Jareth: After I came out as transgender, it was a really huge struggle to get back into the modeling industry because modeling industry is very binary and they don’t really…

It’s changing now in recent years, but for the most part, they’re not into transgender folks. So it was a challenge starting off when I came out five years ago or actually six years, almost six years at this point. And. After coming out, I had to present as masculine as possible to have people take me seriously.

And it was not comfortable for me because I’m, I’m not comfortable being super duper masculine. My aesthetic has changed over the years, obviously, and has evolved. And now as a model who is transgender I just present as androgynous as possible and kind of, you know, push the boundaries on what that means.

Like I’ll wear a wig, but I will wear a mustache or, you know, that kind of thing. Like I’ll just kind of pull from both sides and try my best to create a look that is cohesive. And I find it much easier to present androgynous than trying to do either masculine or feminine, because like, I mean, as a whole, like, I kind of pull from both sides obviously just to make it easier.

But with photographers, like my posing is on the feminine side, just because that’s what I’m used to. And so like a lot of the time my poses will be more feminine, but when it comes to male models, they’re posing is very boring anyway. So it works to my advantage. 

Esther: That’s fair. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say masculine and feminine mean to you?

Jareth: Oh, gosh, that’s a, that’s a complex question. I think that they are fluid. I know that sounds silly because like, you know, gender is, or I think that gender is a construct. I think it’s made up and I don’t think that things are inherently masculine or feminine, but as a society, we have made them as such. We have put things in categories to make them masculine or feminine.

And so therefore our programming thinks of things as masculine or feminine based on what society has told us. So we do have programming that puts things into categories like that. So, I guess there are some things that are masculine and feminine in my brain, even though I know deep in my heart that they aren’t necessarily that way, if that makes sense.

Esther: Yeah. Yeah. It does make sense, actually. I’ve been thinking about that in a way of, we can assign gender to just characteristics. Right. So why is it feminine to be nourishing, why can’t it just be nourishing? What does it have to be feminine or masculine and like being, being fit, you know, is normally considered masculine perhaps, but then, you know, I mean, it’s all, it, it kind of is weird when you think about it, because they’re just facets they’re characteristics there. I don’t know what else to call it really, but like, I’m thinking, why did they have to be gendered specifically? 

Jareth: Exactly. And it changes depending on what culture you’re in, too. So, you know, people all are different all over the world. And a lot of the time people are like, oh, this is masculine. I was like, well, in some cultures, that’s actually feminine.

So it’s really like that breaks down to the back to being a construct. It’s made up, it’s all made up and we all, you know, that’s why I try to play with it a lot. And I push the boundaries a lot because I don’t think that people should, you know, take it so seriously. It is a thing that helps in some ways, you know, but at the same time people are like, I don’t know.

I guess I just. People to not take it so seriously. 

Esther: Ideally. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Is there anything you’d like to add or say that we haven’t talked about yet? 

Jareth: Hmm, I guess not really. I just, I I’m grateful that I had the opportunity to talk more about all this, because it talking about my gender and talking about just all of the constructs that we have and being trans and all that is it’s good to get it out there because I feel like when people hear about that and then it resonates with them, it makes people feel less alone.

And it’s really important for humanoids to feel less alone. Cause we all, we all need community. We all need each other. And the more that we separate each other, put ourselves into like us versus them, we are separating ourselves even more. And I understand that like sometimes having multiple labels makes people, makes it hard for people to like, want to get close to me or be like, take me seriously, I guess. I don’t use it for other people except for the people that it resonates with, because those are the people that it matters to. And I use it for myself. Like I use my labels for myself so that I can kind of have a general, I dunno, feeling of belonging to something, I guess. 

Esther: Yeah. And whether you’re human or alien, we all want to belong. Right? 

Jareth: Absolutely. I mean, I want to be different, but I also want to be a part of a community. It’s it’s complicated. Cause like I wanna, I want to be the, I like being the, the weird, you know, complex alien in the corner that everybody talks to, but has awkward conversations because of being on the spectrum. You know. 

Esther: I know you mean. A lot of the time we’re just taught to fit in and conform. And I think that just gets, so I don’t know, it just feels so wrong really. So I think we all thought a lot of people come to the conclusion of, they just want to belong to a tribe of people who get them, you know? 

Jareth: Absolutely. If I had a tribe of alien humanoids, I would be happy. And I feel like sometimes I have that already. Whenever I talk about being an alien on social media, people are always like, yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. And it’s becoming more common and that makes me very happy because that means that a lot more people are becoming okay with themselves. 

Esther: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Yes. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we wrap? 

Jareth: I think that’s pretty much it actually, cause I, I can’t think of anything that I want to add, but I also really enjoyed the content that we went over 

Esther: Oh good. Yeah, me too. It’s fascinating. And I’ve got I’ve got a Demi girl on the podcast or

Kit, who’s in episode one and 12, I believe. And now I have a demiboy, which is really pleasing to me. So now I can add that to the list. 

Jareth: Nice. I’m glad that I can help with your list. And you know, I also, I enjoy doing podcasts and talking, even though I’m awkward. 

Esther: I feel pretty awkward myself to be fair because sometimes I just end up stumbling over my words.

And then at times I listened back and I think, oh my God, do I still have to say, how often do I say wow, I’m just not, you know, I think maybe I need to vary my vocabulary a bit more, but there you go. I’ll get there. 

Jareth: Hey, you know, we all have improvements that we need to make. 

Esther: Exactly. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Oh, thank you so much for talking to me about all this.

Jareth: Thank you for having me. This means a lot to me to, to spread the word of, you know, bringing more light to, to information that I have to share, you know? 

Esther: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve really, I, I appreciate it so much. And it’s just, I learned so much from every person and everyone is so different, so, so different. It’s amazing.

It’s really amazing. Yeah.